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Boy Scouts to Accept Openly Gay Boys

Date posted - May 24, 2013

Having been a Cub Scout and Boy Scout I can’t say allowing openly gay boys to become scouts bothers me much.

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122 Responses to “Boy Scouts to Accept Openly Gay Boys”

  1. Mother says:

    At Cub Scout age, do you really think they know their sexuality? Is it even about sexuality?

    Im sorry it bothers you but a first grade boy going into cub scouts has no idea about sexuality. As for the older Boy Scouts, I am not going to argue that part, you can believe what you want, but you included Cub Scouts and at that age, it shouldnt even be an issue

    • Jon says:

      I really think at issue here is not the cub scouts, but the fact that some high school age scouts have been denied Eagle scout status because of their sexual orientation. That is the problem.

  2. former scout says:

    hey mom reread my mini ed starting with the 9th word – its doesn’t bother me (much)
    I care little about the issue

  3. PCA says:

    having been a scout and a scout leader at many levels, I have to wonder how an openly gay individual can live up to the scout oath which states that as a scout they will be physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

    • Jon says:

      And your viewpoint is exactly the reason why the Boy Scouts of America needed to change this policy, because young men who had completed the requirements and the work of the boy scouts were being denied their Eagle Scout not because they couldn’t do it, but because someone found out that they were gay. I’m sorry that you have such a jaded view of gay men or have given into a stereotypical view of them that they are somehow weak-minded or weak individuals with no self control, but that is simply not the case. A gay person is just as capable as anyone else of following through with the demands that the Boy Scouts places on its members, and they shouldn’t be in the business of saying that they can’t even try simply because of assumptions about who they are. That to me doesn’t do a very good job of upholding the ideals of the Boy Scouts either – assuming that someone cannot do something or is unworthy of something based on a simplistic notion held without any proof. That looks like an utter failure of living up to the principles you are supposed to be teaching.

      • PCA says:

        If you actually knew me, you would know that I had an openly gay brother before he died of AIDS. With that said, I still believe that if you don’t like an organizations by-laws or rules don’t belong. From what I understand the only reason the BSA had to change its beliefs was so they could keep their tax exempt status. THANK YOU O*******BAMA

        • Jon says:

          I’m sorry to hear about your brother. By your logic, though, the high school student who believed he was following through with the BSA’s bylaws and did believe in the organization in which he was a part for many years, dedicating his time and efforts towards an honor and a goal should have just given up since he was gay. Oh, I’m gay, and therefore not worthy of the achievements I’ve worked for. Of course, it wasn’t the individual boy scout who determined he was suddenly unworthy of this honor, it was the people in charge of bestowing it. That is the problem at hand. Secondly, although there have been some call from individual legislators to deny tax exempt status based on discriminatory policies of the BSA, such laws probably won’t end up going anywhere. Recent IRS lists which list several Boy Scout Units as at risk for losing tax-exempt status have come as a result of confusion regarding how individual units must submit forms, not from specific targeting, as the BSA site itself explains: It has absolutely nothing to do with Obama, and given the way in which you address our President, it might behoove you to revisit some of the codes laid out by the BSA, an organization which does teach important life skills and values and of which many parents would like their children to be a part, even if they turn out to be gay.

    • Who says a gay boy, young man or man isn’t physically strong, mentally awake or morally straight. Seems people with the problem with other sexuality may be the ones morally out of touch or mentally sleeping….!

    • Live and let Live says:

      That is absurd, Homosexuals are like anyone else, physically strong…would you tell a fat kid they can’t join?….mentally awake….tell a down syndrome boy he can’t join?….and What in the world is Morally Straight???

  4. Tickle Party says:

    If they allow the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to tent together (same difference) from here on out, then I say go for it.

    • Jon says:

      I know it might be hard to believe, but even at the hormone-charged junior high and high school age, when even straight boys are doing some strange things in locker rooms and other places, it is possible to control yourself and not want to have sex with every thing that moves. That would be particularly true of someone involved in scouts not because there are a bunch of other boys to spend the night with, but because of the valuable experiences that scouting can offer.

  5. Lee Ann says:

    Unless all the straight scouts sit around and talk about their sexual experiences, I don’t think it would matter whether a scout is straight or homosexual. Being a gay male is only one small part of their life, they are siblings, cousins, students, pet lovers, friends, etc. Their whole life is not their sexual preference. Knot tying, fishing, hiking, camping has nothing to do with sexual preference. So I would guess as long as they don’t get into a long discussion about sex. One wouldn’t know who was gay and who was straight.

    • Tim says:

      If that is the case…then why make the ruling? The program is geared to train up young men, on how to become a man!! It should never promote the gay lifestyle. I am very sure its founders never had this in mind when they formed the program!! In my opinion, this is the start of a slow demise of the program… what is next? Maybe I missed it, where is the Girl Scout program on openly lesbian relationships in their program? Lets ask Harriet from Walnut Grove to comment on this one, what would they have done?

      • Lee Ann says:

        It should have come up. Because some men (boys) wanting to continue in scouting, getting their Eagle scout, could not do so if someone turned them in as being gay. Whether it was true or not, they were denied getting a high rank in scouting. It doesn’t have anything to do with what they were doing personally, it was just the perception that they were gay. That’s not fair.

      • Jon says:

        This isn’t about openly gay relationships. It is about gay people. It isn’t about promoting a lifestyle or encouraging sexual activity, it is actually about NOT making this an issue. The Girl Scouts of America is officially all-inclusive, and does not single out leaders or members who may or may not be lesbians. There is no overt “promotion” of being gay in the Girl Scouts but there is also no rejection of leaders or members based on sexual orientation. The issue in the Boy Scouts came about because of individual members either being denied or threatened with denial because their sexual orientation was discovered. It wasn’t that they were promoting their sexuality as part of their membership, but they WERE being discriminated because of it. There is no call to “promote” being gay in scouting. Discussions of sexual orientation and activity are best left out of programs like this. What it does mean is that gay young men are not punished for being gay after committing themselves to the program. Hopefully soon there will be a further statement that also allows gay leaders in the organization, not to “promote” being gay, but simply so they can be a part of an organization which they believe in.

      • Jay says:

        So you can’t be a “man” because you are gay? Wow, just wow.

  6. Pooker says:

    PCA, my question to you is how do you know what these boys are like just because they are or are not gay? Maybe, they are all in their own hearts, physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. I believe we all have our own sense of reality, and I don’t think it makes one whit difference whether one is gay or not gay. It seems to me that because someone is gay or not gay is none of our business. Heavan knows we have enough corruption in this old world to worry about the sexual preference of a person.

    • PCA says:

      The Boy Scouts of America, for those who don’t know, is an organization that is a chartered organization whose charter partner is the United States Congress. This whole thing about changing their rules now after 100+ years is more about political correctness. Heaven forbid someone has their feelings hurt. No rules were changed when a young man had his Eagle rank taken from him because he admitted to being an atheist, which is also against the BSA Law that a Scout is Reverent. Where was the outcry to change the rules then. Oh, also why is it ok for a gay scout to be involved, but not a gay leader? Where is the outcry for the adults that want to teach? I personally think that rules/bylaws are set up for a reason. Can boys now join the Girl scouts, Does the American Legion or VFW have to accept dishonorably discharged vets. Where does it stop!

      • PCA says:

        And NO I am not saying it is ok for a gay leader to belong. Just asking why change the rules for the youth but not adults.

      • Lee Ann says:

        That old slippery slope rule, eh? Girl scouts have admitted a transgendered girl, who is about 7. I don’t personally object to a gay leader, but that’s just a step too big for BSA right now. People need to realize that because a man is gay, that does not make him a pedophile. Only a pedophile is attracted to children. Gayness does not make one attracted to children. So I can’t see why they won’t accept a gay male as a leader. Maybe someday in the future. One step at a time.

        The VFW does not accept dishonorably discharged. But they should ensure they can accept a gay vet.

      • Jon says:

        Actually, it isn’t okay that BSA denies gay leadership. However, like any call for change, you sometimes need to make them gradually, and there was more indignation over denying the Eagle scout standing to gay youths who had demonstrated their commitment and ability to complete the demands of the organization than there was to admit gay leaders or to reverse the dismissal of leaders because of their sexual orientation. This isn’t to say that it isn’t an issue:

      • Jon says:

        There have been a number of lawsuits filed regarding the BSA and its position regarding religious affiliation. Because it is a private organization, official policies regarding spirituality and religious affiliation are relatively difficult to challenge. The difference between the religious clause, which has been clarified several times since a very public lawsuit in 1973, and sexual orientation is that religious affiliation is regarded as a freedom and a right and is a choice. Thus, a private organization that is clear in its religious connotations as criteria for membership has fairly secure footing with regard to perceived religious discrimination. However, sexual orientation is not considered in legal or scientific circles to be a choice, but a state of being. Although some argue that simply being a gay person means that they are automatically unable to fulfill an obligation either to be reverent or morally upstanding, the reality is that sexual orientation is not an adequate litmus test for the morality nor the religious affiliation of an individual. Thus, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is much more difficult to have upheld in the courts, and probably why the BSA has taken this action.

        • Tim says:

          In my mind, and in the mind of many, I disagree. Adapting to the gay “lifestyle” is a choice. if you say it is not, then you must think the “swinging” lifestyle is ok too. There is no way you will ever convince me that it is a way of life you are born with. As far as I know, and I don’t know much, but I have never heard of scientist finding a gene that makes one “gay”. I do know there are genes that make one male or female!! It is your choice. It was not the way the human species was created for. In my my it is still morally wrong and therefore should not and does not fit the BSA thinking.

          • joe says:

            Your statement “In my mind, and in the mind of many, I disagree.” Is a great example of how confused you are. I’m fairly certain you don’t disagree in other people’s minds… You may disagree in your mind, but your thoughts very clearly have no order or logic behind them. You admit you don’t know much about the subject, yet offer your uninformed opinion anyway. What gene makes a person female? Do you have to get up everyday and decide to be straight? As a straight male I can tell you that I most certainly do not, nor have I ever had to make that decision. How can something be immoral if it doesn’t hurt anybody?

          • Jon says:

            Actually, Tim, I don’t think that the “swinging” lifestyle is okay, and I would caution you not to make false assumptions that misrepresent my position on any issue. Human sexuality is actually a relatively complex issue, and how it manifests itself is based on both nature and nurture. I find it interesting that although you claim that being gay is a choice, gay youths are often taunted and bullied for being gay LONG before they acknowledge it themselves. Why do you suppose that would be? And then, ask yourself, why would the young person who is taunted before he or she has even realized their sexuality finally determine that he or she actually IS gay, when their experience and societal pressure regarding their sexuality has been nothing but agonizing and painful? It isn’t a simple matter of choice. When exactly did you choose to be heterosexual? What made you be that way? What attracted you to women? I am sorry, but if it is morally wrong to simply be gay and nothing else matters, I would also argue that it is morally wrong for anyone to determine after years of dedication and work that it is worth NOTHING because they are gay. That is just as far from fulfilling the BSA code as coming out could ever be.

          • D says:

            Being one of many to share an opinion doesn’t make you right.
            When did you choose to be heterosexual?
            What gene has been isolated to make you that way?
            Why would someone choose to be gay when it will likely come with some amount of hardship and discrimination?
            Why do you get to demand your 1st and 2nd amendment rights but gay people shouldn’t demand civil rights such as marriage?

          • Lee Ann says:

            Tim, they actually have found a gene that they are researching now, that seems to be causing attraction to males. Everybody always assumed that to be a gay person, it was an evolutionary dead end, because they didn’t make the next generation. Right? But think of it this way, this is what they are presuming, while they are doing their research. In the family of the male with this gene, anyone who gets this gene is very attracted to males. So this gay male would have sisters very attracted also, thus without birth control these sisters would have more children, larger tribe. Having extra large families, more children, it is a successful tribe if they have more men for hunting and protection of this tribe. Who would be more protective of a sister’s children, than a male that had no children of his own to protect? So large families with lots of children are in need of more hunters and more protectors. So if there are more males in a tribe, the tribe flourishes and can fight off other tribes wanting their food or whatever. so in evolution, gay males make a tribe stronger and safer. So genetically their family will live many generations because of the gay males. It makes sense to me.

  7. Doug says:

    Why does everyone else have to conform to the outliers? Do they really want to be Boy Scouts, or is it more about forcing everyone else to accept them into the organization? If they really wanted to be scouts, why didn’t they start the Gay Scouts of America?

    • grow up says:

      You must be joking. That joke sucked, though.

    • Jon says:

      This issue arose mostly because of boy scout members who had gone through scouts from beginning to end, starting long before they had necessarily understood that they were gay. In the end, after they had given their time, work, and dedication to scouts, a few were denied Eagle Scout status or allowed to complete an Eagle Scout project because their sexuality was discovered by leaders. The fact is that the Boy Scouts is an organization that has a tremendous reputation for the values and experiences it offers that teach discipline, responsibility, service, and challenges members to be mentally and physically strong. It is simply idiotic to assume that gay people are not capable or worthy of membership in this organization. You must always be careful when you say things like “why can’t they just form their own organization?” We had many years when many Southern states said the same thing about blacks, but the supreme court determined that separate but equal organizations were anything but equal. This isn’t exactly equivalent, since the BSA is a private organization, but it is complicated by the fact that most boys do not identify themselves as gay until after puberty, when young people become aware of sexual attraction and identity. As a result, it would be difficult to create an organization that starts out when they are children and ends when they are adults and create a “gay” organization that would be equivalent.

    • Mother says:

      I didn’t realize gay males weren’t boys.

      Want to rename it straight scouts?

  8. J E says:

    This link doesn’t really have anything to do with the Boy Scouts organization.. But nevertheless is an interesting point of view of how we discriminate against gays. Worth a read, no matter your opinion.

  9. citizen says:

    Why do we have to know what everyone’s sexual preference is? I get sick of this being in my face all the time. What you do in your bedroom should be private.

    • Red says:

      You hit the nail on the head, Citizen!

    • Jon says:

      I don’t know, citizen, I don’t know. But then, most gay people ask the same question. Think of how many times you mention your spouse or significant other in passing conversation. Think of how your kids might talk about it with their friends or post pictures on facebook. That isn’t throwing your sexuality into the conversation, and I don’t associate that with sex. However, if you are gay, you often think twice about posting that picture or mentioning your significant other or spouse because it might have consequences, even those types of casual mentions of our relationships we have that have NOTHING to do with sex. Someone’s job or promotion could be at risk, someone’s status in scouts could be at risk, not for throwing sexuality in someone’s face any more than a girl showing a picture of a vacation with her boyfriend, but for daring to acknowledge that they have a relationship or that they are gay. The idea of coming out doesn’t have anything to do with the bedroom. It has to do with that kind of public acknowledgement that there isn’t a need to hide, something that straight people take entirely for granted. A boy scout wouldn’t have his Eagle Scout called into question if he had a girlfriend and posted a picture of her on facebook, but he might if it was a picture of his boyfriend. These are regular, clothed pictures too, no kissing even, just for the record. I agree, what goes on in the bedroom ought to be private, but it is the casual mention, the ability to not live in fear of judgement or discrimination, that is at stake here.

      • J E says:

        I love this answer. Well said.

      • Lee Ann says:

        Gay people in the military during DADT feared getting emails from their partner, or mentioning what they did on vacation, or where they went, with whom. Because even if you don’t tell, did not mean someone else can figure it out and turn you in. That’s why repealing DADT was good. Imagine not being able to put a picture on your desk of your partner and children? Imagine always having to say “My partner” never “my husband?”

        Imagine as a scout, trying to cover this up, fearing the loss of your eagle scout award? You would lose all of those years of work in scouts to be kicked out. What a shame. Actually once an Eagle Scout reaches 18, he has to leave because he cannot be a gay leader. That is also a shame, something I hope they fix in the next few years.

    • Rainbow says:

      Moral issues are something we should be concerned with. Some day when we choose a wrong path, we will have to answer. Why encourage the right to free choice. If a person chooses this way of life, must they exploit this as normal way and right of life;to my grandchildren! Some of us do believe in what the Bible teaches. I say to all those parents who feel the Scouts have over stepped the line in moral issues, find a new pass time for son’s or start your own youth group.

      • Jon says:

        You might ask someone why they “choose” this way of life when they are constantly persecuted for their “choice,” constantly told that they are wrong, immoral, and unworthy. I suppose I take solace in the fact that even the people who believe that they have the moral high ground have committed sins for which they are unworthy, immoral, and yes, wrong. Perhaps the disdain you have for gay people and the fact that you wish to pass on this shunning of gay people is one such way in which you fall short and have crossed over the line of morality where you have proven yourself unworthy. Perhaps you are to blame for the high suicide rate among gay youths and teenagers. Do you find that fair? Neither do I consider it fair for a gay teen to be denied an Eagle Scout award for which he worked diligently because he is gay.

  10. Tickle Party says:

    If you are a openly gay teenage boy, then it is sexual. You came out, great. Start your own group. Why don’t the boy and girl scouts tent together? There is no difference!

    • Mother says:

      Because it is “BOY” SCOUTS. Not. Boy/ Girl scouts

    • Lee Ann says:

      Male and female military soldiers are tenting together. And they don’t seem to have a problem. The reason they had two separate scouts, one for girls, and one for boys, is back in the olden days, people assumed that women were weak and couldn’t do the strenuous things that the boys did. The camping, hiking, etc. were for the males, and sewing was for the girls. As time goes by, the GSA is getting more like the BSA. They are finding that both groups derive a lot of benefits from the hiking and camping.

    • Jon says:

      Just as I would hope that a boy wouldn’t need to have sex with every girl that moves, gay young men, particularly those involved in Scouts, are not out to have sex with every other young man. There are boundaries, and there are consequences for violating those boundaries. That is simply not a reason to ban gay scouts from membership.

  11. Tickle Party says:

    Males and females are tenting together? Where? This is not the military, openly gay teen boys!

  12. Jay says:

    I can’t believe some of these responses! I’m really in disbelief.

    Who are YOU to say someone is less of a man because he has a different sexual preference than you? These are young boys we are talking about. Here’s what you all need to understand – homosexuality is the EXACT same as heterosexuality in the sense of… You are attracted to whatever it is you prefer (men or women), but you don’t desire to be with EVERYONE that walks. A gay man doesn’t want to have sex with every single other man out there just like a straight woman doesn’t want to have sex with every single man she sees. EITHER WAY, to think that having gay leaders is a sin or would cause pedophila is an absolute shame. Those leaders want nothing more than those kids to learn and grow, and shame on you for assuming something so sickening just because they are different than you. Allowing gay members is a great step for equality…It makes their lives so much better, and who are you to spit on that? I think you all need to dust off your Christian values by loving and accepting each other but most importantly… MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!

  13. 77Orab says:

    As a parent of current Boy Scouts and a former one myself, what a sad day. The scout leadership caved to political correctness, demonstrating that you don’t need to stand for what you believe.

    If this is the precendent, then what is next?

    I am glad my sons are near the end of their scout experience as I shudder to think what we will allow next?

    • Jay says:

      “Doing the right thing” is political correctness? Tho has nothing to do with politics! It had to happen because gays are still being discriminated. Would you say you support segregation/call desegregation “political correctness?” People live different lives than you and deserve to be happy too.

    • Lee Ann says:

      Its the right thing. Its not going to hurt you or your sons or grandsons. Only if you should happen to have a gay grandchild, then he wouldn’t get kicked out of scouting in his teens. If you have a son or grandson that is gay, and you still love that child as much as ever, what do you suggest happen? Knowing the prejudice and the bad experiences a gay child has, wanting the best for your child, would you tell him to get out of scouts because he is “less than” the others?

      And before you insinuate that you will never have a gay child in your family, that’s one out of ten. It happens all the time, to all families. Not just rich or poor, or middle class. All families.

    • Jon says:

      Actually, there was a tremendous movement in standing up for what they believe on the part of scouts who petitioned the council and some who even returned their Eagle Scout badges because they believed that a discriminatory policy that prohibits members from being gay lest their accomplishments be stripped and told they are worthless and by extension that they are worth less than their straight counterparts was wrong and against what BSA stands for. They had the courage to stand up to precedent and the position of the council in order to effect change. That is standing up for convictions, too.

      • Concerned says:

        Who told them they were worthless or is that what they percieved.

        • Jon says:

          Well, thankfully, I would assume that BSA leaders would not tell gay young men that they are worthless or worth less than their straight counterparts, but it would not be difficult to have that perception if being gay was the only barrier to achieving the highest accolade afforded by the organization. Their efforts are all for nothing because they are gay, and being gay disqualifies you from earning it not because you aren’t capable of the work or the dedication, but for the simple fact of who you are. That is a demoralizing position to be in.

    • Jon says:

      I am deeply saddened by your post 77Orab and your position. I am sorry that you automatically dismiss the ability of gay youth to aspire to work their way through scouts even if at some point during their participation they discover their sexuality (and no this does not equate to having sex). I am sorry that by extension you seem to imply that gay people are automatically worth less than you. I hope that at some point someone changes your mind, that you make the acquaintance of a gay person or couple that fulfills their responsibilities, works for the good of society through service, and even worships regularly in a local congregation. They are all around you, and you might not even know it. Arrogance and hubris masked as “conviction” are dangerous things that lead to unwarranted discrimination and latent hate (even if it is unintentional, as I don’t believe that you actively hate anyone)

  14. Jay says:

    I hate to be the one to break it to you all but THIS is why LGBT Teen suicide rate has skyrocketed – because people fear what they don’t understand and make these kids feel “abnormal” or “wrong” for something they can’t even control. Why not just accept people for who they are instead of making them feel “less of a man?” Gay equality is just this generation’s skin color equality. I PRAY you’ll find yourself on the right side of history.

    • Lee Ann says:

      I know when I was in kindergarten, I walked out on the playground and wow, saw the little redheaded freckled boy of my dreams. I didn’t look at the girl beside him and say “Oh I can’t like her.” I automatically liked the boy. I didn’t have to choose right or wrong, what people would think, anything but that for me, it was natural to want to marry this person (yes, even in Kindergarten). Imagine when a child goes out on the playground, realizes that the person they think they love makes them bad?

      On a serious note, when I was 12, the neighbor boy across the street hung himself in a field near our houses, when he was 15. He was the change of life baby, Mama’s little boy. She would have accepted anything he wanted. But he felt he was letting her down, so he hung himself. I have seen firsthand the damage that is never repaired, there is never enough grief for someone who died like that. I don’t think he chose to be gay.

      • Jay says:

        Exactly, I don’t think anyone chooses to be gay or straight… It’s just a natural feeling. Imagine if this was turned around and being hetero wasn’t the norm and you had to hide your attraction for the opposite sex in fear of losing rights or certain privileges. What if gay people laughed at you and said you aren’t a worthy person because you’re straight? That’d be a pretty horrible way to live… And it’s all because of an attitude. The sad part is there IS a gay community in good old Sheldon, Iowa… Some don’t come out because everyone else doesn’t welcome them into the community as a gay person (I mean, look at some of these comments). Is that what we want to teach our children? To dislike certain people for being different? There is a quote that I love and its so true… Something along the lines of “Homosexuality is found in every species. Homophobia is found in one.”

  15. irritated says:

    You are wrong. Homosexuality is wrong! Can’t see why you people can’t figure this out! Wake up!

    • Lee Ann says:

      Homosexuality is wrong for you. It is just as natural to the gay person as heterosexuality is for you. I am a gay ally, I am not gay. While I agree that there are certain things that I would not want to do, that doesn’t matter. Because its as natural to them as your own lifestyle is for you. And if we could just leave the private matter of what they do in the bedroom, there is nothing different at all. They love, they cry, they argue, just like anybody else.

      I can’t see why you think we should go by your rules. You are not the rule maker in this country. And if you don’t like the rules, just like me, you vote your conscience and you get the legislators you want. If 55% of people think everybody in the country should be allowed to marry, then that’s what we get. People didn’t like black kids in the schools with white kids. The Supreme court said that all schools should be integrated. Regardless of your views on that topic, we integrated. And it took the National Guard to do it. Because the rights of the minority cannot be voted on by the majority. If that were the case, the South would still be segregated. What do you mean by, “wake up?” I’m awake. People I know are awake, and we all believe that everyone should have the same rights in this country, whether you are a gay teenager in the scouts, or a couple wanting to get married, or a mixed race couple that wants to marry, or a little black lady that doesn’t want to give up her seat and sit in the back of the bus.

    • irritated says:

      Why can you make the rules? That’s what is happening here. You don’t want to live by my rules, why should we have to accepted and live by yours?

      • Lee Ann says:

        Look, as long as you are not committing any crimes, you live by whatever rules you want. And that freedom is for everybody else too. They live by the rules they want, as long as they are not committing any crimes. We all have the freedom to live by our own rules, as long as we hurt no one else. We are never going to live by the Bible in this country. You may, if you wish. But in this country we all have freedom to live in our own way. You too. You don’t have to live by my rules. You live by your own. But you have to give that freedom to others also. They live by the rules that give meaning to their lives, as do you. So let’s all stop making rules for other people, and live our own lives as we see fit. Agreed?

  16. Concerned says:

    As a Christian the bible teaches us to love our neighbors and not judge them. The bible teaches us that we live in the world but we are not to become part of worldly ideals. The bible tells me to render unto the government what is the governments. The government does not have the same beliefs I have but I try and obey the laws that it makes. When they take the tax exempt status away from nonprofits or when they target conservatives, that is the price to pay for trying to live by our faith. The Christians have always been persecuted for what they believe. Even if we try to live how God wants us to and obey Him, the government will always punish or target what they believe is a threat. Let me live how I believe and I will let you live how you want. Just don’t judge me for trying to follow what I believe the bible wants for MY life.

  17. Lee Ann says:

    Concerned, I think that in the US, at this time in our country’s history, a Christian is very seldom judged or criticized for their religion. You can live where you want, worship on whichever day is right for you, eat whatever foods your religion requests, have the holidays that your religion believes are sacred. Nobody is killed for their beliefs, nobody has to follow the government’s idea of religion.

    In what way are Christians persecuted in this country? the problem that I am having is that people that are Christian believe that we should live in your way of living. following your laws and beliefs. While that’s great for you, its not what others believe. So they shouldn’t have to follow anybody else’s belief system. People say “in the Bible, it says homosexuality is an abomination.” So is spitting on the sidewalk. Its fine if you believe that way. But our country does not follow any religion. We are not a theocratic nation, like Iran is.

    • Jay says:

      I completely agree with you! If we were religiously run, we wouldn’t be so “free.”

    • high school student says:

      I disagree. Maybe Christians are not prosecuted by death or other harsh matters like in other cities. But christains are persecuted in otherways. Even in small town Iowa. I can only imagine what it would be like in other bigger cities. Now, at OUR LOCAL high school, kids are judged for being Christian. There is so much peer pressure around them but these kids are continuing to make good decisions. They should be rewarded and recognized, but instead they are made fun of. I think this is sick. They are called “weird” for not partying or reaching out to the unloved. They are called “Jesus freaks” if they pray before a meal, or even mention God. This is disgusting. I know this is true because I have experienced it. This is only high school! Imagine what its like for adults. Even on this website people are being persecuted for stating or standing up for their beliefs. We are not teaching our children how to stand up for their beliefs by letting others walk all over them and to allow them to call names and make rude comments. As for the gay issue, I do not believe in gay marriage because of my religion. But I believe, because of my religion, that we must love others more then ourselves, despite our differences.
      Isaiah 5:20

      Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

      • Lee Ann says:

        I wish I could tell you who my granddaughter is. She is a good Christian, recently graduated from Sheldon, and has never had a problem with anybody being mean to her because of her religion. She has a large group of friends, they are all good kids, and they go to Church and Youth Groups together. She’s never felt persecuted for her religion. Her religion is a part of who she is. Maybe you should surround yourself with a better class of kids. Anyone that would cut you down for your choices in life doesn’t sound like someone to be around.

        She does have an uncle that is gay, and she has known that since she was a little girl. She loves her uncle, and has never had a problem with his lifestyle. He is in a long term relationship, and regularly visits Sheldon. She has never had a problem with her religion versus judging or not judging others.

        • high school student says:

          I’m glad your granddaughter had such a good experience. But I am here to tell you that this is not always the case. I have a great group of Christian friends whom i can talk to and go to church and youth group. Remember, im not assuming or implying anything about your granddaughter, but people are not always who they say they are. I hate to say it but people in my own group of friends and youth group say good things and the right answers at church and to family but not in their daily lives. AGAIN not assuming or implying anything about your granddaughter! I can reassure you i am not making these things up that i have experienced and witnessed at school. It’s not the people I hang out with it is the people in my classes, and that are around me through out the day and during activities. Maybe this didnt happen for your granddaughter, and i am truly glad it didn’t. but it happens to other kids.

    • Concerned says:

      Right now the IRS is being looked into for targeting conservatives (Republicans). I have never told anyone how to live. “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” I am probably a worst sinner then any of you reading this. I do not go out and tell everyone what I think they do wrong. God gave us all a choice to follow Him and it is hard. I try and love everyone. You are perceiving that all Christians are trying to make you live like we try and do and you are somewhat angry about it. I can have an opinion just as you have. The problem is…I disagree with you. As for the boy scouts, they will break up into different clubs because someone is trying to shove their openly sexual way of life into their organization when sex is not what they are about. The purity is gone and political correctness is in.

      • Jon says:

        Actually, it is the Boy Scouts who originally made the issue about sexuality, NOT the kid working for his Eagle Scout project. You should be careful when you conflate sexuality with sexual. They are not the same thing.

  18. I M Disgusted says:

    I am tired of the people who want to part of another group just because they think everyone owes it to them. This is just another group complaining about being discriminated against. Instead of joining a club that don’t have your same beliefs, start your own. I’m sure you would have a bigger following if you would create “The Gay Scouts of America”. You could have rainbow colored uniforms, too. And when you get old enough, you could join the United Gays of America Army. We need more people in the front lines, because I wouldn’t want any of you behind me!!

    • Jay says:

      So having “colored-only” bathrooms and schools seemed okay to you too?

      • Tickle Party says:

        So having co-ed bathrooms in schools seems o.k. to you?

      • I M Disgusted says:

        The last time I checked my Crayon Box, white was a color. You missed the point. Example: If girls want to play football, start a girls football team. If girls want to wrestle, start a girls wrestling team. Boys are prohibited from playing girls sports. Where is the fairness there? My point is: If the Boy Scout don’t allow Gays, then the Gays can start their own club. They shouldn’t have to force their beliefs onto an organization. It used to be if you were offended by something, you dealt with it. You didn’t force your beliefs onto someone else like is being done today.

    • Jon says:

      I am disgusted by you, so I guess that makes us even.

  19. Meets says:

    Unbelievable! What a shame. This discussion is no different than abortion. Morally wrong. Personal choice or being born that way. A gene that has been discovered – hello already. An this oh these poor boys blah blah blah….. I guess if your kid was molested by your priest or next door neighbor I assume you all have the same feeling oh that poor guy blah blah blah blah….. Now being the Bible into this and it’s a closed case. Maybe some of you need to sit down and read the good book.

    • Lee Ann says:

      Meets, I respect your opinion that certain things are morally wrong—to you. They aren’t necessarily morally wrong to others in our country. You live your life by the Bible. Great for you. I choose to live by people able to do what they want, live as they want, as long as they don’t hurt anyone else around them. Whether you believe that homosexuality or abortion is morally wrong, I don’t. I believe in a woman’s choice in her body. I believe a person should be able to marry the person that they love. And I believe just as strongly as you do about the morality of my decisions. Since we do not live in a theocracy, religion is not the law of the land. What is good for you—-great! But we cannot base our laws on anybody’s belief system. If you don’t believe in marriage equality, great ! Don’t marry someone of your own sex. It will not hurt you at all if gay people are granted these equal rights that you have had your whole life.

      You are certainly free to worship and believe as you wish, as long as it doesn’t harm another. And I cannot see how gay kids in BSA will harm anyone. Just as gays getting married does not harm anyone. We don’t go by Sharia Law, and we don’t go by Evangelical Law. We are a secular country.

      • whatever says:

        This does hurt us all. One more step towards the downfall of our society! Look at how many Nations fell due to the downfall of their society. I don’t want that to happen to this Great Country! So tell me how this doesn’t effect you????

        • Dug says:

          I’m just sayin’…1 Corinthians 6:9 says, in black and white, no gray area here: “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men”

        • Jon says:

          I think you give gay people way too much credit if you think that giving a gay teen an Eagle Scout award that he has worked diligently and responsibly to obtain is leading to the downfall of society. Now, I would argue that those who now reject everything the Boy Scouts stand for and want to leave them simply because they let that gay scout participate in the organization WILL most certainly not help us in our society’s descent. There are those who would now throw the entire organization under the bus because of it. THAT is sickening to me. That is despicable, and shows utter disdain and disrespect for this country and values that we hold dear…yes even the gay people in this country care about doing good for society and the larger world. I’m sorry you don’t feel that way and that everything is now ruined because of it. That attitude is sickening to me.

    • Jon says:

      I am sorry, but pedophilia and molestation are NOT equivalent to homosexuality, and perhaps it is you who should read passages of the Bible for how you ought to treat your neighbor. And closed case? Hardly. None of the passages that seem to condemn homosexuality refer to gay relationships as they exist today, with consenting partners committing themselves for a lifetime. The admonishment against homosexuality has more to do with separating the Israelites from the Canaanites, whose priests conducted ritualistic homosexual acts. In Sodom, the idea was not about love for each other, but about exerting dominance over in violation of rules of hospitality. In the New Testament, it was common practice for Greek men to take a young man or boy, often an apprentice as a sexual partner, opting to gather with other men for these acts than to lay with his WIFE. The problem here was not homosexuality per se but the commitment of sexual acts with someone other than the wife to whom he had made a sacred vow of commitment. You should also note well that the word “homosexual” did not exist until the 19th century, so ANY attempts to translate the Bible in a way that uses “homosexual” is historically inaccurate. Now, if you don’t wish to take historical context and precedent into account in your scholarly Biblical work, then you should take everything at face value and not make similar cultural excuses for your own actions. For example, I hope you do not wear cotton/poly blends, since wearing fabrics weaved from multiple cloths is expressly forbidden. You should also probably refrain from eating pork or shellfish, which are unclean and not allowed. Your willingness to reign down judgement and your lack of understanding of your fellow man are disappointing to me. We are all unworthy of salvation, yes even you, and we are to willingly accept the gift of grace given by God through Jesus, who is the way in which our sins are forgiven. We are also called to live a life that reflects Jesus’ in our actions and our deeds. How exactly is comparing gay people to child molesters and pedophiles fulfilling that? You choose to live a life in Christ…and I bet you even know exactly when you chose that path. Then live it.

      • Tim says:

        If ones’s sexuality is no-ones business…..then why are those that are of gay tendencies making it such an issue?? I don’t hear any straight person proclaiming…”OH Hey by the way…I am straight” Maybe they should just do like everyone else does regarding their sexuality..keep it private. I have kept quiet reading so many “experts” on the gay and lesbian way of life spouting off. Sure have your opinion, but my goodness it seems if you disagree with those of that thinking, they would rather attack you personaly b/c your view is different than theirs. There seems to be some who comment on this subject, that “know it all”. Everything from interpeting the Bible to bringing it inito todays times. Really I don’t think they are all that scholarly. I have given my opinion on this subject and been attacked personally b/c of my thinking. Is that ‘persecution’? This will always be a no win subject for those that disagree with that lifestyle, or believe it is not Biblical. So those of you that want to attack people personally on this go ahead…

      • Tim says:

        I am not sure where you got your Biblical training, but some of your interpetation of scripture does not quite add up. Scripture NEVER condoned homosexuality, or sexuality outside of marriage for that matter. If I follow your scholorly thinking and interpetation of your bible, you seem to be saying that homosexuality was never mentioned? Yet then again you refer to what was going on in Sodom, and then you seem to tell us the term homosexuality only came in existence in the 19th century? And then you bring in old testament laws about eating pork? Do you really understand why those laws were in place at the time? you are so bent on condeming anyone who disagrees with you, you seem willing to bend and distort some truths. You preach about love and how those that disagree with you need to study their ‘Christian’ values and ‘live them’, I agree. The Bible I believe in teaches to love your neighbor, it also says to pray for them. (you forgot that part) .. You can be ‘disappointed’ all you want with someone elses veiw and religious beliefs but don’t distort history or teachings to benefit your beliefs. so now I said my piece so start condeming me!!

        • Jon says:

          First of all, most gay people I know actually prefer to keep their private life private, and they don’t “make an issue of their sexuality.” However, these same gay people were active in movements for marriage equality and have a vested interest in issues where gay people face discrimination or inequality when it happens. This is not about making sexuality public, but ensuring that people are not facing discrimination simply because of who they love. We don’t see heterosexuals proclaiming their heterosexuality because they don’t have to, but then think about how often you mention your wife or your kids in conversation every day. You might even have a picture of them on your desk. Now imagine you are gay and have a partner and maybe children. Suddenly something as innocent as a photograph is something to be nervous about. You might hold hands with your wife in public, but I’m sure you’d think twice before doing the same if you were gay. That is why, as you seem to think, there is a moment for gay people where they do sometimes make a public affirmation of their sexuality…as a way to relieve that pressure and stress of having to hide themselves, but it is not something they do to you or for you, but for them. I’m sorry it offends you so.

        • Jon says:

          As far as the Biblical interpretation, try not to misinterpret. The word “homosexuality” did not exist until the 19th century, so any Biblical translations that use that particular word are simply incorrect, as neither Greek nor Hebrew had words at that time that had an equivalent meaning. Specifically to the word “homosexuality.” Do you follow now? Or are you going to misinterpret again? Now, although I’ll acknowledge that the Bible never specifically condoned being gay and in fact gives examples of its prohibition in Genesis, Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians, what I am saying is that the cultural understanding of what constituted same sex behavior or relationships in Biblical history is not equivalent to the type of relationships that gay people today engage in. In all of the Biblical examples, the admonishments are made towards those engaged in same-sex sexual behavior manifested themselves as a demonstration of power over another individual and of pagan rituals in the Old Testament, and of adulterous pederasty in the New Testament. These are simply not the model of the relationship that gay people today seek out. My goal in this explanation was not to distort truths, but clearly I missed on my obligation to explain the cultural and historical context of petitions against “man lying with man” as found in the Bible – note that I’m not saying they didn’t exist – only you said that I claimed this. What I do maintain is that the WORD “homosexual” as developed in the 19th century simply did not exist in the languages and cultures from which the Bible emerged.

        • Jon says:

          Finally, my goal is not to condemn anyone, since doing that never really gets us anywhere and only leads to discord and distortion, insinuations and misinterpretations. The fact is that I do realize why the laws were in place when they were written. The Old Testament statements against homosexuality were written in order to separate the Israelites from the Canaanites and to encourage procreation within the community of the Israelites. However, in our modern abundant society, the need for marriage and stable relationships solely for procreative and proprietary purposes is not as great. This is not to say that it isn’t important and necessary, but there is no danger of everyone becoming gay, and society will go on. In addition, many gay couples enjoy their own ability to raise children either through surrogates, artificial insemination, or adoption. Thus, even gay couples today can participate in one of the most important aspects of society, the raising of our next generation. You may disagree with this too, but it does happen. Now, whenever we speak on issues we hold close to our hearts, passions tend to run high, and we often make assumptions about people that are unbecoming and say things either in a direct or indirect way that are insulting or interpreted as an insult by the reader. I regret if you find my tone or my words insulting, and I’m sorry if you feel that way. And, lastly, I do not ever forget that in addition to loving my neighbor, I must also pray for others. I pray for understanding, and I pray that even in our petty human disagreements that we find the space to acknowledge our human frailty and that we ultimately are better together than we are at war with each other. Peace.

      • Dug says:

        Are you making this statement in response to my statement that I quoted from the Bible Jon?

  20. Pooker says:

    Here’s a thought….maybe the gay scout should keep quiet about his sexual preference to the other scouts in his troop. Problem solved because what we don’t know can’t hurt us right? I’m wondering how many folks would be so hard on gays being allowed to join scouts if their son was gay. It certainly is something to think about isn’t it? Would mom or dad tell the kid no you can’t join scouts because you are gay? I wouldn’t. Not all gay people are sex starved slavering crazed idiots.

    • Jon says:

      Here is the problem. I would say for most gay teens, it actually would be preferable if their sexuality was private. I mean, after all, high school is a particularly difficult time, made more difficult by teasing and bullying that goes on in schools. There is nothing about scouting where any type of sexuality ought to get discussed. The problem is that even if the gay scout is careful, sometimes the truth becomes public knowledge, whether that be on social media or if the kid ends up in a relationship and people start to ask questions. Being “out” isn’t about throwing sexuality in someone’s face, it simply means not having to feel that they are hiding anything. There shouldn’t be any more fear for a gay teen having someone “prove” his gayness by sharing a photo of the kid with his boyfriend any more than a boy might casually share a photo of his girlfriend. That is all this means. Not having to hide in fear, but keeping what is private private.

  21. Lee Ann says:

    “The downfall of our country?” Are you for real? There is no way that any of these situations we are talking about will lead to the downfall of our country. Gay people in scouts is going to contribute to the downfall of our country. you sound like my great grandmother back in the 50s. She was old, and wrong then. I must admit I have said a time or two, “the world is going to hell in a handbasket.” Do you know what that is? Old age setting in. As we get older, we don’t adjust or adapt as quickly. In 100 years, or even in 50 years, gay people will be just a regular part of our country, it will be no more big deal. Because the young are accepting it, and wanting everybody to have the same choices and rights.

    The problems our country is having right now has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality or scouts. Our country will be just as strong and just as good as it is now. It ‘ll be better.

  22. This topic is just as ridiculous as gun control, abortion, or any other topic trying to restrict people of their rights. Does anyone tell you what color car to drive and if you drive a blue car is that statement an attempt at making others drive a blue car…Nobody tells a man of Dutch heritage he can’t marry a woman of German heritage. Quote the bible all you’d like, but the what I have taken from my faith in Christianity is to be accepting of others…No matter what THIER choices are.

  23. Food Producer says:

    It doesn’t get any simpler than what Dug just said. Why is this so hard for so many people to see. Hopefully all of you can figure this out. We are allowed to make our own choices but hopefully we can make the right choices. Lee Ann, why does the fact that this is all being accepted make you think it is right? Are you the one that is for real? ITS NOT RIGHT!

    • What part of not judging others don’t people understand….THAT’S NOT RIGHT!

    • Lee Ann says:

      As long as the behavior hurts no one, that’s as right as we can be. Two gay men wanting to get married for love hurts absolutely no one in the entire country. A young boy wanting to continue in scouting hurts no one in the entire country. Whether its right to you or not, if it hurts no one else, then its none of our business. We all have the same rights.

      Again, I feel like a broken record here: We can not base our laws on the Bible. We live in a secular society, our laws are based on rights, not on Bible laws. If we based our society on the Bible, we would be no better than Iran, who bases their laws on their Koran (which is an offshoot of the Old Testament). You can base your beliefs on any religious tract you wish. But our country does not go by the Bible. Regardless of what the Bible says, people in this country have a RIGHT to get married to the person they love. And if we were being fair, everyone should have that right. All young men should have the RIGHT to go through scouts through the Eagle Scout program. Nobody should be excluded for stupid reasons, such as color, etc. add to that sexual preference.

      So leave out the religious reasons, leave out the “its icky” reasons, its nobody’s business, and people should be able marry the person they love, be an Eagle Scout, etc. because they are human beings in our society and would get a benefit from their inclusion.

      • rp says:

        as Christians we are told to go out and make disciples of all nations. THAT MEANS that we must spread the word by telling others our belief and why we disagree with things. Do not tell us to stop giving the bible reasoning because that is our belief just like you have beliefs. we are one nation UNDER GOD. how do you think our nations founders would feel about this issue? Obviously they founded our country with a christian standpoint. and we are far from where we started, whether good or bad.

        • Mother says:

          Westboro believes that too

        • Jon says:

          Now, I don’t disagree exactly with your premise. I would say as a point of order that “In God We Trust” and the words “Under God” were adopted as an alternative motto to “E Pluribus Unum” (out of many, one) and inserted to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s as a Cold War response to the forced atheism of Communist Russia. One would argue that our founding fathers saw “E pluribus unum” as the true motto of this nation, one that specifically refers to the One nation created from 13 colonies, but also referring to the disparate populations of people who came to this nation in search of religious freedom, commerce, and a new life. This applies equally to all our citizens today. I also agree that believers have a responsibility to reach out and to believe with conviction. The difficulty is that whenever you express a belief, someone will disagree with you and may not accept what you have to say. This doesn’t automatically mean that you are persecuted or not valued, it simply means that there is disagreement. Both sides of any issue that is emotionally charged would be good to remember this fact. Be bold and live with conviction!

  24. Jay says:

    I told myself I’d stop commenting in this issue but I find myself just too passionate about this equality issue and too disturbed by some of these comments.

    All I’m going to say is this, and I’ll be very, very blunt with you… For those of you who claim it’s wrong biblically/referring anything to God here, you’re just using your religion as a crutch to validate your disgust towards difference, and it’s offensive to those of us who try to use Christianity for the greater good by accepting and loving those who aren’t the same as us. This attitude of yours is making our society very hard for some of our youth to grow up in, and I wish so badly you could see this. God would never want you to figurively stick your finger in someone else’s face and say “you’re wrong, and I am right because my God says so!” If God is love, and two men love each other, therefore knowing God, what’s the issue? Why, you get grossed out by gays? That’s your problem, not theirs or God’s.

    How is this a downfall of society? Isn’t that a little dramatic? Same sex marriage, at the end of the day, is marriage between two adults. Same as heterosexual marriage. And, might I remind you, marriage is a government institution. It’s not a natural thing – bears don’t get married, humans created marriage and marry. You can have religious ceremonies yes, but it’s not required to make it valid, therefore consider it government “controlled.” If you want to preserve your hetero marriage, please work on banning hetero divorce.

    BUT! This isn’t about marriage, but like Lee Ann said, young gay boys deserve to achieve their goal of Eagle Scoutregardless of what sexuality they identify with because your Eagle Scout honor should not be dependent on who you are attracted to, but denying that honor to some based on that fact isn’t fair or okay.

  25. Tim says:

    This thread no longer is about ‘Boy Scouts to Accept Openly Gay Boys’. It has turned into approval, acceptability, and endorsement of the gay lifestyle.

  26. Concerned says:

    20 out of 91 (22 percent) posts for Jon. 15 out of 91 (16 percent) posts for Lee Ann. You both feel strongly on this subject and most of the rest of us are ignorant, intolerable people. Again, we are not trying to run this country and impose our beliefs to be the law of the land. We want the freedom of religion to follow our faith without people like you expanding how we feel and trying to put us as a threat to America. I do not want organized prayer in the public schools. What if my child went to an extreme Muslim school and was forced to pray to a jihad God. We also do not kill goats or put lambs blood over our door posts. That was in the Old Testament. We believe Christ died for Everyone. Gays, lesbians, Boy Scouts, poor people, rich people, and you. There are Christian schools and colleges, Christian boy and girls programs, and a lot of group bible studies for us to go to that let Christians grow in their faith and they are also a benefit to society and produce good things.

    • Mother says:

      You actually went and counted the posts?

      I do not recall either John or Leanne shoving anything down anyone’s throats, it actually started out the other way… others going after them for defending the boys.

    • joe says:

      You do realize that muslims pray to the same god that you do right?

      • I M Disgusted says:

        How can you even think or say that? The next thing you are going to say is that the Koran is the Bible in another language.
        You have your opinion, but you don’t know the facts.

        • joe says:

          Actually I do know the facts. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god. The god of Abraham. Yahweh. If you want to try to discriminate against a religion, you should at least have a basic idea of what that religion is. Muslims even see Jesus as a prophet sent by their god (the same one you worship) and as a messiah. This belief is a requirement of Islam. It’s pretty sad that I know more about your religion than you do, and I don’t even practice it.

          • I M Disgusted says:

            Jews are still looking for the messiah to come. They don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead. Muslims believe in Allah. They also believe all “infidels” (anyone who does not believe as they do) must die.
            A vital difference between the Islamic and Christian views of God is the biblical concept of the Trinity. In the Bible, God has revealed Himself as one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. While each Person of the Trinity is fully God, God is not three gods but three in one.

            God’s Son came in the form of man, a truth called the incarnation (Luke 1:30-35; John 1:14; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 4:1-3). The Lord Jesus Christ conquered the penalty and power of sin by dying on the cross (Romans 6:23). After rising from the dead, Jesus went back to heaven to be with His Father and sent the Holy Spirit to believers (Acts 1:8-11). One day, Christ will return to judge and rule (Acts 10:42, 43). Those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus will live with Him, but those who refuse to follow Him must be separated in hell from the holy God.

            “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:35-36). Either Jesus bears the wrath of God for your sin on the cross or you bear the wrath of God for your sin in hell (1 Peter 2:24).

            The Trinity is essential to the Christian faith. Without the Trinity, there would be no incarnation of God’s Son in the Person of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ, there would be no salvation from sin. Without salvation, sin would condemn all to an eternal hell.

            So, do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? A better question is, “Do Christians and Muslims both have a correct understanding of who God is?” To this question, the answer is definitely no. Because of crucial differences between the Christian and Muslim concepts of God, the two faiths cannot both be true. The biblical God alone addresses and solves the problem of sin by giving His Son.

            “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:16-18

            Read more:

    • Harriet Oleson Fan Club says:

      Harriet from Walnut Grove has not commented on this thread. I think it is time to retire this thread.

  27. Lee Ann says:

    Allah, Yahwhe, God, Jehovah, are all the same God. The Jewish religion was around for a long time, then there was a division and the Jews went one way and the Muslims went the other. The Muslims DO believe in Jesus, but don’t think he is the son of God. Mohammed and Jesus are both prophets.

    • joe says:

      You said absolutely nothing to dispute the facts I presented you. Leann is exactly right. Allah is Yahweh, which is the god of Abraham, which is the being you call god. I would hope that everyone believes that everyone must die. It’s kind of a pretty self-evident fact. I think you were trying to say that muslims believe they need to kill anyone who doesn’t believe like they do. This is not only untrue, but utterly insulting. The incredible amount of ignorance it takes to even make a statement like that makes me sad for you. That’s like saying christians love molesting children, I mean just look at all of the chrisitians and church leaders who are guilty of it… To be clear, I don’t believe christians feel that way, but that is an apt comparison to claiming that muslims believe they need to murder all non-muslims. Complete and utter ignorance.

  28. new resident says:

    What about the sex offenders in town? Do we judge them?

    • Lee Ann says:

      Are you trying to change the subject, or are you trying to put sex offenders and gay people in the same light. Sex offenders commit crimes. They have either raped women, children, etc. Pedophilia (sex with children) are more often than not committed by straight men that may be married, like Jerry Sandusky. What does that have to do with this thread on gays in BSA? They are two different things, entirely.

      Of course we should judge sex offenders– in a court of law. If they are found guilty, they should pay the price.

    • Mother says:

      You bet your butt we judge sex offenders. I believe it is a horrendous crime and should be punishable by death! However, it is no more a gay crime than burglery, murder etc. Men molest girls, boys, rape women etc. I believe the incidence of young females being molested by men is higher than young boys by far. Women sex offenders usually have male victims in their teens. Pedophila and homosexuality are not related

  29. new resident says:

    ok thanks for your input LeeAnn

  30. new resident says:

    Yes, Depends on the situation

  31. Dug says:

    Yeah, well everybody knew it was coming…I mean a thread like this. Gay/Lesbian rights are a highly debated topic these days. This thread is a good thing, it gets people to think about what’s happening in todays society. Yes, I have an opinion, just like everybody else. No, I’m not trying to shove it down anybody’s throats. I guess the only thing I can say is that THEY WILL BE JUDGED. Not by me, not by you, not by anyone on this earth. And for what it’s worth, I hope everyone on this thread has vented and voiced their concerns the way they like. I AM PROUD OF MY CHRISTIANITY and my beliefs, I will die believing in Christ

    • Lee Ann says:

      Good for you! And I would fight to the death for your freedom to live and worship as you wish. In this great country, we should all have that freedom to live and worship as we see fit. As long as we commit no crimes, we have a lot of freedom in this country, to live as we want to.

  32. Scout Mom says:

    Ok, I have read all the comments on this. I am a scout mom and this is what I think. What many of you don’t know/understand is what it is going to happen to the Scouts since gay boys are allowed to join. Scouts have charters, some charters are churches and have very specific beliefs on gays. Scouts are losing charters, without a charter the pack (for cubs) and troops (for the older boys) are no more. So whether they join or not may not matter because there will be no scouts to join. Also what is happening is that the parents of the scouts are telling the boys that they can no longer be scouts because of the gays being allowed. There are whole packs and troops that are dropping out of scouts due to gays being allowed. So you can argue equality for all, but what is it going to matter if scouting (it is over 100 years old) is no longer due to gays being allowed? You can say, well find another Pack/Troop to join, but let’s be reasonable. If you have to travel to let’s say for instance Sioux City for meeting how many parents are really going to take them? I would have to say that it is just not feasible. I personally have nothing against gay people, and that is not the issue. What is the issue is what is the few doing to the many?

    • Lee Ann says:

      That would be too bad. As for the sponsors for different troops, the preference of the boys wouldn’t even come up. They certainly don’t dress in drag for meetings. These are just regular boys, they aren’t showing off. The ones that were kicked out of scouts were kicked out because someone else turned them in for “Possibly” being gay. If it doesn’t come up, nobody would know.

      Still, its fair that all boys that wish to be a scout should be allowed. If scout troops are shut down due to this ruling, its not the gay scouts that were wrong. They kept things quiet, they just wanted to continue in scouts. If the troops are shut down, it would be because of the people unwilling to give a boy a chance to be a scout. If the church is that exclusive that they cannot allow a boy to be in their scout troop, then maybe that church doesnt deserve to have a troop. Its sad, either way. But you can’t discriminate against one scout, either. I predict that as time goes by, this will just be part of history. You know, the “rights of the minority cannot be infringed upon by the majority.” They predicted the downfall of the USA when segregation was ended, when different races were allowed to marry, when people could sit at the Walgreen luncheon counter. This will pass, too.

    • Jon says:

      If that is true, if scouting disintegrates because they allow gay people, then that says to me that the many actually don’t hold the values that scouts teaches to be important, or that respect for all people only goes as long as only a particular kind of people are allowed to join. It’s funny that you are concerned at what the few do to the many, but are blind to what the many do to the few. I hope that there isn’t a time when you are treated like a pariah, so that if you are tossed out of an organization because of who you are or that the group disbands because you are allowed to join. That sends a terrible message of hate and distrust, and if people sponsoring scouts are going to treat their neighbor in such a disgusting manner, then maybe these churches and organizations as well as the people participating in them should be reevaluated for their value to society and their latent hatred. It would be sad if this spelled the demise of scouting and undermined a key tenet of the Christian faith within these hypocritical churches, who apparently love their neighbor only as long as they meet certain criteria, or they are not welcome.

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